Mick,

You're quite the libertarian when it comes to finding whores online but not so much when it comes to online poker. Whats up?

Why is the sex trade "morally repugnant"? The standard model of male/female relations is that men go for attractiveness and women go for money. The nice thing about commercial sex is its honesty. Commercial sex can be a bad thing, but not just because it's commercial.

Mark,

I agree with you. I'm the libertarian Mick castigated in your post about how the U.S. could face trade sanctions because of our stupid ban on online poker.

I just wanted to needle him a bit on this post. I don't think he's really being inconsistent...I just think it is funny that he has no problem with online hookers but he got so worked up about online poker.

Jeremy, just for the sake of getting you in the right pigeon-hole, are you a mormon? I ask because you mention in your blog that you avoid caffeine for religious reasons.

Assuming you are a mormon, is that consistent with our shared tolerance of commercial sex?

In Australia the leader of the opposition has gained popularity because he went to a lap-dancing club which services the UN in NYC, so maybe there's a tip for Mitt Romney.

Now I will type the word 'virtue'.

...and I try so hard to be clear.

Its rather simple really--gambling is private behavior that has well-known, documented, serious social costs.

Sex for money that doesn't involve a defacto red light district is certainly perceived as truly "private" behavior" and thus not a legitimate target of social control.

It should be clear, if you reread the post, that I was speaking from a public policy position--PREDICTING the future if you like.

The fact that I consider the sex trade morally repugnant should clue you in that in point of fact, I don't consider commercial sex a truly "private" matter anymore than online poker is.

Would you say that characterizing certain ethnic groups in our culture as "stupid", "lazy", with inherent criminal tendancies is a bad thing? Does racism merit social intervention?

Yet pornography and commercial sex fundamentally misrepresent half the population in an extremely negative way. The suggestion that women just love ejaculation in the face suggests what exactly about women generally? That they are all just waiting for a "real man" to dominate them into slave-like submission?

Perhaps the greatest education I've received since moving to Utah is how incredibly healthy the Mormon view of family is and how it fundamentally breeds respect for men, women and children which in turn ameliorates the society.

Mark's comment only serves to illustrate how cynical modern society has become. I don't know if he's serious, but even if he isn't, his view that "women go for the money" is ubiquitous and reveals a very disturbing characterization of women as chattel.

You can build a society on trade--but not a very good one.

I will now type the word "virtue"...

Here's some evidence:

http://tinyurl.com/yvt33b

Mick, I am serious. I think that human motivations follow main lines divided by gender because of different reproductive and nurturing strategies of men and women. I do not see motivation as only mechanistic, static, pre-determined, gender-driven etc, but to deny those main lines is to deny reality and the harsher the material pressures, of course the greater the reversion to the main line. Out and out lust is just great as far as I'm concerned. Dishonour doesn't arise from lust, but from lying to someone who trusts you. Our specific sexual fantasies are neither here nor there.

I will now type the word 'virtue'

Sorry...I thought it would be ok if I messed with you a bit. The hookers are better than gambling line of needling was just too much for me to turn down.

As I said earlier...I don't think you are being inconsistent. I think your argument has merit. I understand your contention about the societal costs involved with online gambling. I don't think those costs outweigh my right to play a little Texas Hold-Em online if I were to choose to do so but I understand how others would disagree. They're wrong.

For the record I personally believe that sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage is immoral. I won't participate in it. Mick's statement on the social costs of pron and prostitution mirror my beliefs and I don't think he was arguing in support of either in this post. Thats about as far into the human sexuality discussion that I'll go since I'm typing this from my work office.

Mark,

Yes. I'm LDS. I avoid coffee and tea. I can't find anything in our code of health about Mtn Dew although maybe it should be restricted too!

A man in a chicken suit is not a chicken.

Women aren't "going for the money" when it comes to men, and men aren't really going for attractiveness. A woman is seeking a mate that can adequately support her offspring (an extremely sensible position), and a man is unconsciously evaluating the prospective mother of his children for her genetic fitness and health.

Note that both of these behaviors are focused on reproduction--not commerce.

Prostitution short-circuits all sorts of beneficial and necessary social patterns, in fact its considered a reliable sign of societal decline.

Seen any Jewish hookers lately? No? Not surprising since Jews as an ethnic group are doing very well, yet the Jewish prostitute is a staple of medieval and pre-modern literature, reflecting their indigent and persecuted state.

The birthrate in Iran has crashed and Iranian prostitutes are in Europe what Jewish prostitutes were a couple of centuries ago. Put in another way, women have put aside their procreative aspirations for survival considerations in a hostile environment.

Of course, that leads us to comtemplate the reality behind prostitution, which isn't its "honesty", but the fact that conditions in society become so degraded.

Its a vicious circle. Regardless of the power fantasies of women, they are equal as a result of the enlightened concessions of men. In war, when civil order breaks down, women are universal victims. When the Russians invaded Berlin, they raped every women they saw.

When a woman ceases to be a mother, sister, daughter or wife and becomes simply a sex object, we soon become incapable, as a society of men, of seeing women in any other way. Dehumanization makes slavery possible.

+ The most famous, if anonymous, ex-hooker in London is Jewish: belledejour-uk.blogspot.com (don't open at work).

+ Women are more realistic than men about sex. My mother-in-law agrees with me that all men are fools.

+ Lust isn't dehumanizing, it's lust and it makes the world go round or at least the Animal Kingdom. It doesn't imply cruelty any more than wanting a Corvette implies carjacking.

+ "A woman is seeking a mate that can adequately support her offspring (an extremely sensible position), and a man is unconsciously evaluating the prospective mother of his children for her genetic fitness and health." What I said, except you prefer to prettify it.

+ Looking coldly at the world as it is and then choosing self-definition by free-will isn't cynical, it's noble.

'virtue'